Hands on...or Computer Generated?

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What's the way to go?

 
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DJ_Kryptik
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Postby DJ_Kryptik » January 22nd, 2004, 1:14pm

yes craig, geez, i know its Delerium who is the artist of "Silence" and mclachlan singing it, excuse my lazy ass fingers, i didn't feel like typing out the whole thing...

as for the DJX thing, i agree with Scott on that. i remember when i looked at it, the midi jack there was just about the only thing i would think of using it for...

and here's a pic for craig if you wanted to know:

There's the toy, here's the keyboard.. which is a separate item.



The above images are from ebay, so the turntable one will expire in 3 days, and the keyboard one will expire in 9 days, unless someone buys both on the Buy It Now feature.
April 27 @TBA (Lawton, OK). DJ Kryptik. VIP party. 7pm-whenever we croak.
http://www.angelfire.com/crazy/tatz
http://www.myspace.com/djkryptik

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DJ_Kryptik
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Postby DJ_Kryptik » January 22nd, 2004, 1:15pm

the cd that says DJX on it, i believe that's the one wheel that spins, that thats the scratch wheel... the other stuff are buttons for noises i think... i haven't touched one of those in more then 2-3 yrs, so i don't know all its functions really.
April 27 @TBA (Lawton, OK). DJ Kryptik. VIP party. 7pm-whenever we croak.

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ScottDigweed
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Postby ScottDigweed » January 22nd, 2004, 1:34pm

99devils wrote:I thought your DJX was the turntable looking thing. If it's an actual keyboard than by all means keep it.

-Craig


:oops: I didn't read your first post carefully enough and thought you listed a DJX keyboard... my bad.

Image

Is this what you have? If so, I agree with Craig - it's not worth keeping it. Since you don't have a MIDI keyboard at all, I think you should consider getting one instead of the Electribe. The little Korg keyboard is too limited... if you want to buy brand new, wait a few months for the new Alesis micro-Ion keyboard (http://www.alesis.com). Here are a few other suggestions off the top of my head:

Korg Triton (sampling keyboard w/seq)
Yamaha Motif (sampling keyboard w/seq)
Ensoniq ASR-10 (sampling keyboard w/seq)

As for the Triton and Motif, you should find these for sale used in abundance because both companies have released newer versions within the last year or so. You may have to bite the bullet and simply save for awhile to afford it, and possibly sell a bunch of your gear to get there. But those keyboards are pro-spec... it would be an immense upgrade to your current sounds that you could build off of for the future. IOW, it would be worth it.

The ASR is a bit older and may be possible to get for cheaper. I know someone w/ an ASR-10 that he's not using anymore. If you're interested, I could possibly hook you up.

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99devils
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Postby 99devils » January 22nd, 2004, 2:24pm

All of those suggestions will bust his bank wide open.. It'd be cheaper to buy an Oxygen8 and an ESI-4000

-Craig

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Postby ScottDigweed » January 22nd, 2004, 2:49pm

Or my mint-condition Oxygen-8 that I don't use anymore. I give you good deal! :D

Seriously, you would need to add a sequencer for the ESI + Oxy8 setup. I'm simply saying that for the price of all three, something like an ASR-10 would get it all done, with a better workflow at that.

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Postby 99devils » January 22nd, 2004, 3:43pm

ASR-10s are still pretty expensive these days. They go about $850 on Ebay. And they max out at 16MB of memory. An RM1X at @225, and an Oxygen8 at $140 new, and an ESI-4000 at under $300 would save almost $200.

And you're talking $1500 or more for a Triton or Motif.

-Craig

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Postby ScottDigweed » January 22nd, 2004, 4:44pm

99devils wrote:ASR-10s are still pretty expensive these days. They go about $850 on Ebay. And they max out at 16MB of memory. An RM1X at @225, and an Oxygen8 at $140 new, and an ESI-4000 at under $300 would save almost $200.

And you're talking $1500 or more for a Triton or Motif.


ASR-10s are expensive because they are quality instruments. It's a real polyphonic, multitimbral sampler, with filters, efx, and transwave looping. More than a beginner needs - yes - but still a killer keyboard IMO and a good piece to build off of. Quality doesn't come cheap.

The Triton and Motif - same deal. You want pro sounds, you need to have pro gear. If you're smart about it you can save a bit of money going the separates route that Craig described.

In the end it's up to you and if you want one nice piece or a bunch of things you can string together to create the whole.

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Postby Fat Bastard » January 23rd, 2004, 4:01am

The little Korg keyboard is too limited...


Are we talking about the MicroKorg? Awe man, I have to disagree...it does have only 44 keys, but thats meat enough...unless I want to blow someone's subwoofers or go high and kill their ears. The MicroKorg has the vocoder, and it is just as powerful as the MS2000. It actually has the same testes as the MS2000 I believe. It's simple, it has enough necessary keys, and it has a powerful engine.

I have played around with this, and I regret not getting it...I may have to down the line.

Please...someone tell me the Electribe AmkII wasent a horrible waste. I will fully admit I dont know much, but I heard samples of this thing, and read the specs, and for $270 brand new, I felt it was a good thing to pick-up, was I that wrong?

Would the Electribe Sampler be an absoultely horrible decision, for me as a beginner?

Trust me...I heed all your recomendations. Once I am in a better position( and get soem practice) I will buy the big stuff and totally thank you guys. For now though, I am trying to buy multiple different things, brand new, and slowly paying them off. If ebay allowed layaway, I'd be all up in that sh!t.

Literally, I am lucky to have a house over my head...I have one foot in a box...cardboard that is.

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99devils
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Postby 99devils » January 23rd, 2004, 9:39am

No, the electibe A is a decent buy, especially for the money. It's not a total waste.

I would, however, steer clear of the Korg samplers.

Scott - I know quality instruments cost money, nobody knows this better than me :) But the Emu ESI samplers or even an old Ultra are as good or better samplers - ditto the Akai S5000. You could have an MPC-2000 for less which is a fine sampler and a better sequencer.

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Postby ScottDigweed » January 23rd, 2004, 10:04am

Craig,

Why steer clear of Korg samplers? I personally have been considering the ESX-1, but if there's a good reason not to... (are we talking compression issues?) For me it's less of an issue of "how much more could I get for the same $ in used gear", but more of an interface issue and how much can I Play that box in a live setting.

FatBastard,

The microKorg isn't bad... I've played it and liked the sound. But if you go to Guitar Center, they've got an Alesis Ion right next to it... play the microKorg, then the Ion, and compare the two. One factor to keep in mind is that the Ion has 8 voices of polyphony, whereas the microKorg has only 4. The Ion is more flexible, has a better sound (IMO), and its filters and entire synth engine totally blow the doors off the microKorg...

If you don't believe me, go ask on a few other forums and see what other people say.

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99devils
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Postby 99devils » January 23rd, 2004, 11:20am

I should preface my remarks by saying that I am not a fan of Korg equipment in general. I like their workstations, but I don't like the rest of it.

OK, on to the sampler. I just really quite simply don't like phrase samplers. I understand the ESX contains two parts that can be played across a keyboard, so it partially addresses those concerns. The tubes are basically a joke. They might add some warmth to the sound, but if one blows in the middle of a gig... It says the sampler is 16-part but if you look closely you only get a certain number of parts. And what exactly is a "part" anyways on a sampler? A (one) specific sample? With my Akai, you get as many parts as you do voices. You can do a drum kit with a kick, snare, 4 toms, 4 cymbals, and a high hat - pretty standard rock kit - all in one program. With the ESX, you only get 9 actual drum parts so you couldn't even fit that kit into the sampler's architecture. Even my old S2000 could do that. As far as I can tell memory isn't expandable, and there's no SCSI, and no floppy drive - all you get is smart media. It doesn't say anything about sample library compatibility, so I assume there is none (although it does at least load .wav files).

And it doesn't appear to be able to sequence external gear either.

If it was my money and I was looking at this kind of thing I'd go with an MPC hands down.

You and I also differ on sequencing - you like your boxes to be self sequenced, and I prefer to have modules and only one kind of sequencer (so I don't have to learn a whole bunch of different architectures).


These are only my opinions folks. I'm just some guy sharing my thoughts based on my experiences. If you think a particular piece suits your purpose and budget and you can accept its limitations then by all means go for it. Don't not buy something you really think will work well for you just because I said not to :)

-Craig

PS - Scott, don't you already have an MC-909? What does the Korg offer you that you don't already have?

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Postby ScottDigweed » January 23rd, 2004, 1:33pm

This is where I've been over the past year in terms of sequencers:

Logic... crapped out. No longer useful for writing music. Needs reinstall.

MC-909... was nice, but sampling compression artifacts drove me nuts so I returned it.

MC-80... started using it after the MC-909 went bye-bye. It's useful for triggering RPS's, but still more than a bit hokey to use. Disapointment.

Machinedrum... used it live twice. Made a few mistakes due to the shift-pattern bank+pattern combination of pattern switching, which p'd me off. I want to relegate this to studio use only. (enter need for sampling)

Project 5... used it live, but only as a VST host for Battery, because P5 has issues looping patterns, cutting off all notes at the end of its loop point. They corrected a MIDI clock issue that I reported. But in their TBR update this weekend, they have not added any additional faciliticies for modifying sequencing live. While it is possible to trigger MIDI patterns from within their Syncron32 live, it is unclear if the update will improve Syncron's ability to access more patterns without causing the audio to glitch. Dissapointment.

EMX-1... got this a few months ago and really love the interface - it's very instantly gratifying. You can *play* the EMX-1 unlike any other box I've laid hands on. It combines the live punch/in/out/save pattern coolness of the Machinedrum with the synth and EFX multiplicity of the MC-909, and that combination makes it a potent device. The sound is crystal clear like 44.1kHz 16-bit should be (unlike Roland ROMplers). It gets really gritty with the filter Drive (which the ESX-1 doesn't have... grrr). The raw waves *do* resemble those of the Virus at around G3 (near middle C. But on the downside, the external sequencing definicies you noted apply somewhat to the EMX, too.

So you're right that an MPC-1000 (for example) would topple the ESX-1 if your priorities are to (1) transfer .wav's from PC and (2) playback .wav's with MIDI modules sequenced from the internal sequencer.

But... the most important lesson I've learned is this: to integrate and simplify. Using rack modules that are intended for studio use in a live context (when you're the only musician performing) is not an efficient nor a safe way to operate. In fact, it is quite cumbersome to operate different devices all at the same time.

My new direction is to combine as much of my music into just one or a few devices and compose new tracks with those devices' limitations in mind, then go out and do it and have some fun.

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Fat Bastard
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Postby Fat Bastard » January 23rd, 2004, 2:20pm

ScottDigweed wrote:Craig,

Why steer clear of Korg samplers? I personally have been considering the ESX-1, but if there's a good reason not to... (are we talking compression issues?) For me it's less of an issue of "how much more could I get for the same $ in used gear", but more of an interface issue and how much can I Play that box in a live setting.

FatBastard,

The microKorg isn't bad... I've played it and liked the sound. But if you go to Guitar Center, they've got an Alesis Ion right next to it... play the microKorg, then the Ion, and compare the two. One factor to keep in mind is that the Ion has 8 voices of polyphony, whereas the microKorg has only 4. The Ion is more flexible, has a better sound (IMO), and its filters and entire synth engine totally blow the doors off the microKorg...

If you don't believe me, go ask on a few other forums and see what other people say.


I believe you...I was just factoring bang for buck $370 for the microkorg, or $800 for the Ion...I will indeed try it out...even though I hate guitar center...maybe it is worth paying more than twice...I dunno, never tried it...will though....

as far as Korg samplers...I have heard good things about them, and even though I dont know much of the lingo you guys say, I'm off the read devils input on it now....


Scott, thanks for all the help and advice. I cant tell you how much I appreciate all your guys help.

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99devils
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Postby 99devils » January 23rd, 2004, 2:35pm

ScottDigweed wrote:Using rack modules that are intended for studio use in a live context (when you're the only musician performing) is not an efficient nor a safe way to operate.


This is why I'm such a huge RM1X fan. The new material I'm working on will have me running an Akai S6000 sampler, a Nord Lead, an Access Virus, a Waldorf Rack Attack, and a CS1X all from the RM1X. Aside from actually playing parts on the keyboard (which I can do from the Nord or another band member can do from the CS1X), I can control all my sequencing from the RM1X - no hopping from piece to piece. I can also assign the knobs to control any parameter I need on any of the boxes I have - again, no grabbing for a knob on another box. I used a similar setup in 3lb. Mindtrip, but without the CS1X or Attack. I used one keyboard and the RM to run our entire show.

A lot of people prefer to have self-sequenced boxes like the elecrtibes but I prefer the advantages of using only one kind of sequencer to sequence everything. I don't have to learn the quirks of three different boxes' sequencers this way. There's nothing wrong with using self-sequenced boxes, it just doesn't fit the way I work.

Obviously I'm a big fan of the RM1X, but I've also been pretty impressed by the Emu Command Stations' sequencing abilities, and they've got much better synth engines too (I don't use the RM1X's synth engine except to rough out parts quickly).

As far as samplers go (you mentioned aliasing and whatnot with the 909)... You have to respect the overwhelming amount of professional musicians and studios who use Akai and Emu samplers over the other hardware boxes out there. The Kurzweils are really nice too, but pricier. I've used or had brief plays with a large number of budget samplers and for the most part I found they either didn't sound as good, didn't work as easily, or had a lot more limitations than an Akai or Emu. Even their lower priced and older offerings sport pro features like SCSI, multiple outputs, high voice count... They're pretty easy to use (I was able to set up a program on an Emu E5000 at guitar center without the manual), they're reliable, and they sound good. As far as I'm concerned, there's a reason why these two companies have pretty much unbroken histories of making good samplers back to the beginning or sampler history :) Roland has left huge gaps, and the mega-underpowered for the price SP-808 was just the first in a line of lame alternatives to the MPC-2000. They haven't made a good sampler in a long time. Korg has never made a good pure sampler.

Just my 2 cents on the whole matter :)

-Craig

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Postby ScottDigweed » January 23rd, 2004, 7:18pm

FatBastard wrote:
ScottDigweed wrote:I believe you...I was just factoring bang for buck $370 for the microkorg, or $800 for the Ion...I will indeed try it out...even though I hate guitar center...maybe it is worth paying more than twice...I dunno, never tried it...will though....

as far as Korg samplers...I have heard good things about them, and even though I dont know much of the lingo you guys say, I'm off the read devils input on it now....


Scott, thanks for all the help and advice. I cant tell you how much I appreciate all your guys help.


No prob, it's my pleasure if I can be of assistance. You should try the Ion cuz it's good to know what your options are... it's a great sounding keyboard. The Micron will likely go somewhere around $500-600 new, but I have no idea when it will be out. So if you want to get going and start soon, waiting a few months is perhaps not an option.


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